Turbo import pocket rockets - 2014 Mercedes CLA45 AMG vs. 2014 BMW M235i vs. 2014 Subaru WRX STI

[andrew20195]

I don't get it then, how is this not an Impreza then?

Every exterior body panel except the roof, IIRC, is different. I believe many of the interior panels are different as well. Every previous WRX is pretty much identical to the Impreza, with the exception of wider fenders, more aggressive bumper, sport seats.

Subaru really only has two platforms. The small one is shared between the Impreza/Crosstrek and Forester, and the larger is shared between the Legacy and Outback (and possibly the forthcoming Subaru minivan).

I haven't seen one in person yet, though.

[whoosh]

Why are you not getting the 2015 WRX and tune it? It seems 2015 STI uses an older engine and I just don't see a huge difference between two except price and pretty bad mpg for boosted 4 (sti).

The 2.0T in the WRX is Direct Injection, which we all know is a total PITA to deal with compared to port injection. I know with the EJ257 that I can get close to 400whp on E85 with a tune, upgraded tank pump, and upgraded injectors. Who knows what the FA20 will do on corn, or how long it will take to get it there...

The engine isn't the only difference between the cars and I'm after a four season canyon carver, rather than a drag car. So the handling improvements on the STi are appealing, as are the things like:

Brembos vs Subie brakes
Bulletproof 6MT with direct actuation vs. cable shift 6MT of unknown durability
Rear-biased (41/59) AWD with DCCD vs traditional Subie AWD (50/50) with no driver control of torque split.
Front helical LSD and rear Torsen LSD vs. open front/rear diffs
STi has more reinforced areas in the chassis than the WRX (more handling improvements)

Some non-performance differences:
dual zone climate control
alcantara seating with more aggressive bolsters
LED headlamps (WRX is stuck with halogens and no LED/xenon option)

Since I can reach my power goals with the EJ, I'd rather get a car where I only have to upgrade the power instead of one where I have to upgrade the power, brakes, suspension, etc. etc. etc. Maybe the WRX would be cheaper, but definitely not easier. And I don't want to wait for my local tuner to know how to reliably tune for E85 on the new motor.

[Sticky]

The 2.0T in the WRX is Direct Injection, which we all know is a total PITA to deal with compared to port injection. I know with the EJ257 that I can get close to 400whp on E85 with a tune, upgraded tank pump, and upgraded injectors. Who knows what the FA20 will do on corn, or how long it will take to get it there...

Your line of thinking is completely logical.

[andrew20195]

Who knows what the FA20 will do on corn, or how long it will take to get it there...

Full disclosure: I own a BRZ, and I used to own an Evo VIII.

That being said, I think overall the FA20 will prove to be a stronger engine, and there is already tremendous aftermarket support. The Dual Injection system on the BRZ is an advantage over pure DI, though. If 400 whp is your goal, the venerable EJ25 is more than capable. Just make sure you get someone who knows what they're doing to tune it.

The engine isn't the only difference between the cars and I'm after a four season canyon carver, rather than a drag car. So the handling improvements on the STi are appealing, as are the things like:

Brembos vs Subie brakes

I could be wrong on this model, but on previous WRX vs. STi, the steering knuckles are quite a bit stronger on the STi. So even if you retrofit the brakes, the STi is much better in this regard.

Bulletproof 6MT with direct actuation vs. cable shift 6MT of unknown durability

This is probably the only thing that would prevent me from buying a WRX over an STi as a fun car. The STi transmission will break long after everything else in the driveline. Although the STi shift feel is not really that good, to be honest. I would put it somewhere between my '05 Evo 5-speed and my '06 GTO T-56 (neither of which compare to, say, an S2000, or even my BRZ).

Rear-biased (41/59) AWD with DCCD vs traditional Subie AWD (50/50) with no driver control of torque split.

The driver control isn't that important to me, but DCCD is far better than a viscous coupling. Again, part of the transmission on a Subaru.

Front helical LSD and rear Torsen LSD vs. open front/rear diffs

This is actually relatively cheap to retrofit.

STi has more reinforced areas in the chassis than the WRX (more handling improvements)

It remains to be seen how much of a difference this makes, but it can be done to a WRX chassis with a little work.

Some non-performance differences:
dual zone climate control
alcantara seating with more aggressive bolsters
LED headlamps (WRX is stuck with halogens and no LED/xenon option)

Since I can reach my power goals with the EJ, I'd rather get a car where I only have to upgrade the power instead of one where I have to upgrade the power, brakes, suspension, etc. etc. etc. Maybe the WRX would be cheaper, but definitely not easier. And I don't want to wait for my local tuner to know how to reliably tune for E85 on the new motor.

Overall, I don't disagree with you. I'm a bit disappointed the STi is using the EJ engine, to be honest. But I understand, as the FA engine will not bolt up to the STi transmission. I think the lack of competition has made Subaru soft. Here's to hoping another manufacturer (Mitsubishi?) will give them a run for their money within the next few years.

WRX/STi sales make up a very small portion of Subaru's total sales, it's not about money. I think they may need a push to be at the top of their game.

[Sticky]

Full disclosure: I own a BRZ, and I used to own an Evo VIII.

That being said, I think overall the FA20 will prove to be a stronger engine, and there is already tremendous aftermarket support. The Dual Injection system on the BRZ is an advantage over pure DI, though. If 400 whp is your goal, the venerable EJ25 is more than capable. Just make sure you get someone who knows what they're doing to tune it.

Would you do me a favor please @andrew20195 and take a look at the subaruboost and mitsubishiboost forum indexes to see how they are setup and if they make sense?

Pay no attention to the styling that will change:

http://www.subaruboost.com/forum.php
http://www.mitsubishiboost.com/forum.php

[whoosh]

Full disclosure: I own a BRZ, and I used to own an Evo VIII.

That being said, I think overall the FA20 will prove to be a stronger engine, and there is already tremendous aftermarket support. The Dual Injection system on the BRZ is an advantage over pure DI, though. If 400 whp is your goal, the venerable EJ25 is more than capable. Just make sure you get someone who knows what they're doing to tune it.

This will be my third STi, along with an '02 WRX. So the EJ and the rest of the Subaru driveline are very familiar to me...

Definitely dual injection helps - Toyota did it mainly for emissions of course, but for the rest of us, the main benefit will be reduction of carbon build up.

I look at the EJ this way: At first I was disappointed too. It would have been great to get a new mill, but there's already so much knowledge and so many parts out there for the EJ that I'm not letting it hold me back (obviously). To me the rest of the car is much improved, and waiting on an FA to come into the STi means parking a car over the winter again. Or dropping more cash on a different AWD car which, in light of this comparison, won't really hold up from a performance standpoint.

As for my tuner, I'll go to one of the highly regarded tuners in Colorado... where Subaru is the official state car.

I could be wrong on this model, but on previous WRX vs. STi, the steering knuckles are quite a bit stronger on the STi. So even if you retrofit the brakes, the STi is much better in this regard.

Yep, you're right about that although as you mentioned, the newer WRX may have closed that gap. They did go to electric power steering on the WRX now, so another plus to STi and the quickened hydraulic rack this year.

This is probably the only thing that would prevent me from buying a WRX over an STi as a fun car. The STi transmission will break long after everything else in the driveline. Although the STi shift feel is not really that good, to be honest. I would put it somewhere between my '05 Evo 5-speed and my '06 GTO T-56 (neither of which compare to, say, an S2000, or even my BRZ).

S2000 is the best shifter I've ever used, period. My Cayman's shifter, with the convoluted cable setup, is trash by comparison. I used to grind 2nd all the time in my 2010 STi... They've apparently made some improvements to the linkage for '15; hopefully they are beneficial.

The driver control isn't that important to me, but DCCD is far better than a viscous coupling. Again, part of the transmission on a Subaru.

It hasn't happened often, but I've absolutely needed to lock the center diff to get up my driveway in winter. Times when an Outback got stuck, an STi made it up... both with full winters mounted.

Overall, I don't disagree with you. I'm a bit disappointed the STi is using the EJ engine, to be honest. But I understand, as the FA engine will not bolt up to the STi transmission. I think the lack of competition has made Subaru soft. Here's to hoping another manufacturer (Mitsubishi?) will give them a run for their money within the next few years.

WRX/STi sales make up a very small portion of Subaru's total sales, it's not about money. I think they may need a push to be at the top of their game.

Totally agree here - competition is often the thing that spurs innovation, and with Mitsu being questionable about extending the Evo lineup, Subaru doesn't have a lot of motivation. It will be interesting to see how the STi does against the upcoming S3 and Golf R. Those are really the only comparable cars in the segment now. Regardless, hopefully we'll see an FA20/FA25 with 330-350hp stock in a few years.

[whoosh]

Detailed information about the significant changes to the 2015 STI:

http://subaruboost.com/showthread.ph...424#post552424

[Sticky]

Detailed information about the significant changes to the 2015 STI:

http://subaruboost.com/showthread.ph...424#post552424

Nicely done.

[singletrack]

Really like the new styling of the STi...they lost their way there for a while. I use to have an 04 (03 build - first US STi release) and loved it - but ~76k hard miles on it with no significant issues. Great transmission. Best braking car in the world when it was released. Biggest fault was lack of steering feel/feedback which I think BMW is the best at in the world.

AWDriveyourself can also be a little boring sometimes...but man can you push those things safely.

[Sticky]

which I think BMW is the best at in the world.

WAS best at

[singletrack]

WAS best at

Could be right. My first-hand experience only goes to the E92 M3. I've never driven a car with better feedback - and that includes the Ferrari 430 Scuderia. I know BMW is all "our new electric steering is better than the e92" - well, I haven't driven it yet so I will reserve judgement. The fact that Porsche has gone to electronic steering gives me some hope that BMW can do a good job.

I will say this. I drove a new F30 32 eh forget what - with the new 2L turbo. Amazing engine. I give it an F- on steering and road feedback. Compare this to my wife's 09 328, I would give it an A+ in the same category. So that tiny sample does support your opinion.

The other thing I would add is that, after further reflection from a business standpoint, I think this may be deliberate. I mean if you consider who is really the target market for a base 3 series BMW, they likely want a luxurious disconnected feel. Still, to me it seems all wrong. If I wanted that, I would get an Acura....like the wheel isn't even connected to the car : P

[Sticky]

Could be right. My first-hand experience only goes to the E92 M3. I've never driven a car with better feedback - and that includes the Ferrari 430 Scuderia. I know BMW is all "our new electric steering is better than the e92" - well, I haven't driven it yet so I will reserve judgement. The fact that Porsche has gone to electronic steering gives me some hope that BMW can do a good job.

I will say this. I drove a new F30 32 eh forget what - with the new 2L turbo. Amazing engine. I give it an F- on steering and road feedback. Compare this to my wife's 09 328, I would give it an A+ in the same category. So that tiny sample does support your opinion.

The other thing I would add is that, after further reflection from a business standpoint, I think this may be deliberate. I mean if you consider who is really the target market for a base 3 series BMW, they likely want a luxurious disconnected feel. Still, to me it seems all wrong. If I wanted that, I would get an Acura....like the wheel isn't even connected to the car : P

The E46 M3 has better steering feedback than the E92 which feels a bit too assisted.

BMW steering feel started going downhill when they started all this park assist and steering assist electronic bull$#@!. Now the steering feels far more artificial.

[singletrack]

The E46 M3 has better steering feedback than the E92 which feels a bit too assisted.

BMW steering feel started going downhill when they started all this park assist and steering assist electronic bull$#@!. Now the steering feels far more artificial.

I disagree. Maybe in a parking lot, but on the track I prefer the E92.

A lot of people remapping the steering etc...I think it is damn near perfect....at least in the range where most people should be quite pleased. Remember, like it or not the e9x M3 IS a GT car + track car. I think the E46 was less GT focused IMHO.

EDIT - I would also add that the boosting does not kill the feedback IMHO - that is the magic.

[Sticky]

I disagree. Maybe in a parking lot, but on the track I prefer the E92.

That's fine. My preference is the E46 steering.

[Nugs]

The other thing I would add is that, after further reflection from a business standpoint, I think this may be deliberate. I mean if you consider who is really the target market for a base 3 series BMW, they likely want a luxurious disconnected feel. Still, to me it seems all wrong. If I wanted that, I would get an Acura....like the wheel isn't even connected to the car : P

I would say this is definitely the case. My brother drove my car and afterwards he goes "what's wrong with your steering, why is it so heavy?"
He likes Audi & VW style steering where the wheel turns like it connected to nothing.

[Sticky]

He likes Audi & VW style steering where the wheel turns like it connected to nothing.

That's the crappiest steering feel in the world.

[singletrack]

That's the crappiest steering feel in the world.

Our only hope is that they still keep the M models focused...if some floaty crap on the low end helps finance that, and that makes the "other" people happy, then I have no problem with it. If it overtakes the brand, then we have a big problem.

[singletrack]

That's fine. My preference is the E46 steering.

Splitting hairs IMO - two great cars...maybe one is a 9.5 in feedback and the other a 10. I can accept that the 46 might feel better to some...it is lighter which definitely helps.