BMW will not respond to AMG and Audi's challenge with an all wheel drive xDrive F10 M5 / F13 M6 - BMW remains "committed" to rear wheel drive

[Sticky]

Now they are powerful cars - that's about it.

More AMG than M.

[Jimefam]

I dont get the whole 50/50 thing on an M5 type car. Is anyone really tracking these cars? For the whole drag/roll racing weight % and even total weight isn't that big a deal. I can totally get the argument on an M3 but the 5 or E are luxury cruisers.

[Sticky]

I dont get the whole 50/50 thing on an M5 type car. Is anyone really tracking these cars? For the whole drag/roll racing weight % and even total weight isn't that big a deal. I can totally get the argument on an M3 but the 5 or E are luxury cruisers.

It isn't about 50/50 on an M5 it is about all BMW's being 50/50. Ultimate Driving Machine remember?

And what made the M5 great was its balance.

[Jimefam]

It isn't about 50/50 on an M5 it is about all BMW's being 50/50. Ultimate Driving Machine remember?

And what made the M5 great was its balance.

Back when the M5 was the size of the current 3's maybe but with a car that has a longer wheelbase than a gtr or a vette its simply too large and heavy to be tossable. Ultimate driving machine yes and on the Nurburgring absolutely you would want a lightweight 50/50 car but the ultimate roll racer or the ultimate highway terror or standing mile car couldn't care less about balance. I'm just saying we are getting hung up on something that wouldn't make much difference on a car that is as big as an F10 and weighs 4500lbs. The evolution of the bmw product line has the M3 today being what the 5 was and a car like the 1M being what the 3 was.

[Sticky]

Back when the M5 was the size of the current 3's maybe but with a car that has a longer wheelbase than a gtr or a vette its simply too large and heavy to be tossable. Ultimate driving machine yes and on the Nurburgring absolutely you would want a lightweight 50/50 car but the ultimate roll racer or the ultimate highway terror or standing mile car couldn't care less about balance. I'm just saying we are getting hung up on something that wouldn't make much difference on a car that is as big as an F10 and weighs 4500lbs. The evolution of the bmw product line has the M3 today being what the 5 was and a car like the 1M being what the 3 was.

The weight is a problem, a big problem.

M's were never about being highway terrors or straightline monsters hence looking at the weight distribution of all the past M5's.

[Jimefam]

The weight is a problem, a big problem.

M's were never about being highway terrors or straightline monsters hence looking at the weight distribution of all the past M5's.

And its because of that that they aren't "stepping up" to the challenge of awd like an AMG for example. For a road course car with moderate power it isn't needed and that is still what M thinks a car like an M5 is for but he's crazy man I bet not 5% of M5 owners will EVER take the car on a proper track. But I bet a large percentage will roll race and do highway pulls and modify them for crazy power where the awd would come in handy. Funny that people like JRCart want to kill bmw for lagging way behind in the "hp wars" but they are building them to a different purpose. I drove a C63 recently and while it's way faster than an M3 it doesn't drive near as well and I bet people who track cars often would likely prefer the M3.

[Sticky]

And its because of that that they aren't "stepping up" to the challenge of awd like an AMG for example. For a road course car with moderate power it isn't needed and that is still what M thinks a car like an M5 is for but he's crazy man I bet not 5% of M5 owners will EVER take the car on a proper track. But I bet a large percentage will roll race and do highway pulls and modify them for crazy power where the awd would come in handy. Funny that people like JRCart want to kill bmw for lagging way behind in the "hp wars" but they are building them to a different purpose. I drove a C63 recently and while it's way faster than an M3 it doesn't drive near as well and I bet people who track cars often would likely prefer the M3.

An M5 doesn't need to be a lightweight roadcourse car to be fun. It needs to be balanced and not nose heavy.

The damn thing already weighs as much as a boat so you might as well give it all wheel drive if you want to compete at this point.

And the C63 feels faster than the M3, it isn't faster. The P31 is though.

[inlineS54B32]

Back when the M5 was the size of the current 3's maybe but with a car that has a longer wheelbase than a gtr or a vette its simply too large and heavy to be tossable. Ultimate driving machine yes and on the Nurburgring absolutely you would want a lightweight 50/50 car but the ultimate roll racer or the ultimate highway terror or standing mile car couldn't care less about balance. I'm just saying we are getting hung up on something that wouldn't make much difference on a car that is as big as an F10 and weighs 4500lbs. The evolution of the bmw product line has the M3 today being what the 5 was and a car like the 1M being what the 3 was.

Yeah, that's the problem in my opinion... Just because they are heavy, they should stop caring about everything/doing things right? As mentioned, every single car in their line-up had a proper 50/50 weight distribution - in other words, were all engineered around this one goal. Now, even some of their "M" series aren't hitting this balance.

I understand what you are saying about the usage of these cars, but that's not what the intention of an M car is (at least previously). What I mean by this - just because people in the US are not using them on the track doesn't mean that they should start to make nonsense. The whole point of these cars was to be a track monster - now they are "okay" at this, but are now instead being beat by the competition as opposed to beating the competition. It's a shame. I know the M5 is a larger car, but it used to be an EXTREMELY impressive 4 door sedan, it still is - but it just isn't the same anymore. It's more about straight line; even if you are not on a track, things like balance/rigidity/suspension/weight all matter. If you are doing triple digits, and need to make a quick lane change for example. If you are in the mountains on a trip as another example. I like a properly built car - and that's what made the M series special - they are able to do most everything really good, now the focus is elsewhere. I mean, the last M5 was damn good - it was the car chosen to be the ring taxi at the Nurburgring.

The only thing good about heavy cars is that they have more mechanical grip. Other than this, can't think of much.

The "standard" C63 is not faster than the M3 btw - the M3 is a half second faster to 100 MPH, after this the C63 will start walking it. You are probably feeling the torque.

Cheers.

[Sticky]

As mentioned, every single car in their line-up had a proper 50/50 weight distribution - in other words, were all engineered around this one goal. Now, even some of their "M" series aren't hitting this balance.

EXACTLY. And when everything had the 50/50 distribution the Ultimate Driving Machine slogan applied to all cars in the lineup. Now it's marketing, not a philosophy.

[Impulsoren]

I have driven many - they feel disconencted, and most of the time heavy.
/rant

But apparently again the Japanese win. I have owned and driven a lot of cars. The 2005 Mitsubishi Evo RS was so much better at turn in, steady state cornering, and even exiting than any other car I can think of. Even RWD cars. Dart in faster than an E36 M3? Of course. Hang in through the corner like a..pretty much anything on street tires? Yes. Exit with tail hanging like E46 if you like? Yes again. TTOD on a wet auto-x track with a stock car on showroom tires? Yeppers.

You guys gripe about cars being too heavy and too tight compared to Old BMWs. You complain about 4wd being a cause of this. But those things are not necessarily related. Back to back on racetracks you will have a much nicer time with an Evo 8 or 9 than ANY BMW that you can order at a dealer. Daily drive, not so much fun, but again that is the tradeoff that BMW is making. Don't blame AWD for what BMW is doing with their marketing, they could make a great sporty fast and quick AWD car but people would not pay much more than $40,000 for it. So that car is not in their marketing scheme, instead it is the "safety for housewives" AWD car.

[inlineS54B32]

But apparently again the Japanese win. I have owned and driven a lot of cars. The 2005 Mitsubishi Evo RS was so much better at turn in, steady state cornering, and even exiting than any other car I can think of. Even RWD cars. Dart in faster than an E36 M3? Of course. Hang in through the corner like a..pretty much anything on street tires? Yes. Exit with tail hanging like E46 if you like? Yes again. TTOD on a wet auto-x track with a stock car on showroom tires? Yeppers.

You guys gripe about cars being too heavy and too tight compared to Old BMWs. You complain about 4wd being a cause of this. But those things are not necessarily related. Back to back on racetracks you will have a much nicer time with an Evo 8 or 9 than ANY BMW that you can order at a dealer. Daily drive, not so much fun, but again that is the tradeoff that BMW is making. Don't blame AWD for what BMW is doing with their marketing, they could make a great sporty fast and quick AWD car but people would not pay much more than $40,000 for it. So that car is not in their marketing scheme, instead it is the "safety for housewives" AWD car.

My buddy has an EVO X, and I couldn't disagree more... I have driven the car many miles on mountain roads - and a lot of highway driving. It's not comparable to a proper real wheel drive car. Yes, it sticks to the road - but this is the exact car I am thinking of when I typed the above. I would be willing to bet that it could even put up better peak numbers than say an E46 M3. Did it handle better though? No - not even close in my opinion. Does it do a good job of sorting everything out when you throw it into a corner? Yes. Is that what I consider a sports car? Again, no.

The EVO is about 25-30 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the E46 CSL M3. What makes the M3 special is it's handling at high speed, not low speed corners - where I will admit the EVO would win due to it's torque vectoring (aka driving for you) nonsense.

This is senseless, I just don't like the way AWD feels - not sure how to describe it better. It's like the whole debate on the GT-R, some people will never agree on the car, and I certainly understand why.

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I agree with the lower part/second paragraph.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Like it or not people want awd high performance cars and some of the fastest, highest performance cars in the world are awd, McLaren MP4, AudiR8, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 997.1tt

You should get your facts straight before you go on a rant like this. But maybe that's too much to ask for in an internet forum.

The McLaren is a RWD car, both the MP4-12C and the new P1 supercar.

Porsche's race track oriented cars (GT3, GT2) have always been RWD cars.

Audi of course would make a AWD car as they're the pioneers of AWD with their quattro concept since the 80s. The Gallardo is only a re-packaged R8, so it obviously shares the same concept.

Mercedes' own SLS is not an AWD car.

There are lots of examples of very high powered cars that are not AWD - all the Aston Martins (including the One-77), all Ferraris (except this ugly new Z3-coupé-after-an-accident thing), Pagani, Koenigsegg...

After all, your argument does not hold much merit I think.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[Impulsoren]

"My buddy has an EVO X, and I couldn't disagree more... "

Well, my argument was based on the earlier Evo 8 and 9, lighter, quicker steering, manual transmission cars. The Evo 10 definitely has all the bells and whistles with the drivetrain, and I agree that it is a little detrimental to the driving experience. I have driven the Evo 8 RS, Evo 9, Evo 10, E36 M3, E46 M3. The Evo 8/9 RS is better from a performance driving standpoint than any of the others. The BMW's and Evo 10 give up too much in the form of comfort (barring the E30, which I haver never had the joy of trying out in M form)
Nurburgring times have little to do with use in the USA. I have been on every track within a day's driving distance to my home and none are anything like the Nurburgring. I sold the evo to get an M5 because I already had a race car, and the evo was actually too much like the race car for a daily driver. The M car is perfect for a daily driver. Great at high speed on a straight road. Not as good on anything with a corner.
You can have AWD and it won't ruin your driving experience, you can have a BMW with RWD and still have it be a boat. I wish BMW would make an M-car that weighs 3500 lbs or less, and could be had in RWD or AWD like MB does. And make an option like the Evo with manual window cranks, no radio, no sound deadening, etc.